Growing from Grief; The Power of Vulnerability for Grievers and Their Supporters

Grief and loss are an inevitable part of life, but it can be overwhelming and challenging to navigate. In this episode, we're talking to Transformational Coach and Certified Grief Educator Suzanne Jabour. As a grieving mother she has found meaning in her loss by helping others who have experienced loss and those who are caring for them. We'll explore the importance of providing meaningful support and understanding for those who are grieving the loss of loved ones. We'll delve into actionable advice, key takeaways, and the power of connection and openheartedness in dealing with grief.

Key Takeaways:

• It's important to offer tangible expressions of support, such as hosting a gathering or performing a specific task, rather than relying on platitudes or productivity models.
• Grieving is a normal and healthy part of life that requires proper support and witnessing.
• Taking action and providing meaningful support is crucial, but platitudes and cliches can do more harm than good.
• Letting the griever know that you're there to listen and witnessing  their pain and sorrow is the best way to help.

Actionable Advice:

• Practice connection and openness in supporting those who are grieving.
• Offer tangible expressions of support to show you care.
• Seek professional advice when necessary.
• Seek  community and connection, we are not meant to do life alone.
• Start conversations about grief and loss with your social circles to promote understanding and empathy while the stakes are low. Develop the language to navigate grief before the trauma is too great.

Grief and loss is inevitable,  it requires action, empathy, and connection. By offering meaningful support and understanding to those who are grieving, we can help them find comfort and navigate through the grieving process. Avoiding platitudes and offering tangible expressions of support can be helpful, as can seeking professional advice when necessary. By starting conversations about grief and loss with our social circles, we can promote empathy and understanding, and support those who are grieving in a meaningful way. Remember, grief is a normal and healthy part of life, and by being there for those who are grieving, we can make a real difference.

Connect with Suzanne Jabour:
Website: A Lived Experience
Instagram: @a.lived.experience
Facebook:  A Lived Experience
Blog: A Lived Experience

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Debbie Harrell

Website: http://www.debbieharrell.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/debbie-harrell-coach/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/livemorealigned/

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New World Normal

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Transcript

Speaker 0 (00:00:00) - And so we're gonna be questioning norms surrounding grief. I wrote down a few notes before we got started. Like I was thinking about my experience with grief, um, over the years and the different losses I've experienced. And it was very much, if you're lucky, you get three days off work, your neighbors will bring you, uh, food also if you're lucky. And then you just try to get back to life as usual, as fast as possible.



Speaker 1 (00:00:26) - Yeah.

Speaker 0 (00:00:27) - And that, that's kind of the normal that I was seeing as a pattern in my family and in my friend, friend group. Um, and so what, what, tell us a little bit about what brought you to working in this field and what your experience with grief in that process was.

Speaker 1 (00:00:47) - Absolutely. I think that you've encapsulated perfectly how grief is like what we're, what we're told to expect, right? You might get three to five days off if you're lucky. People will show up with casseroles if you're lucky. And then somehow you're just supposed to carry on with your life, which is not actually as most of us have learned the hard way, not actually how it works. So I came to this work through my most recent loss, um, which was my son who died at the age of 22 in September of 2020. And unlike the losses I'd experienced before where I was at least able to pretend that, you know, what you've described was doable, um, this time I couldn't, there was no version of what society expected, or it's not even what society expects. It's almost, you know, what the capacity is. Were so grief phobic and grief illiterate that we just don't wanna deal with it for that long because we don't really know how and then we feel uncomfortable and then it's just bad for everyone.

Speaker 1 (00:01:51) - But for me, you know, the loss of a child was a whole next level experience and really taught me that I had to question everything I thought I knew and learn everything I could about how it really works. And that's led to me really wanting to open conversations about grief and how it works, how we can better support each other when it happens, what businesses can do. Cuz that three days off, you're not showing back up as you were before, fully functioning, able to do your regular workload, pretend nothing's happened. None of that is true. And so if we can talk about it, especially if we can talk about it when we're not in the midst of it, or in those acute early, early days, then we can create an expectation that's more realistic, where we actually understand that there are physical symptoms we might want to expect to happen to us.

Speaker 1 (00:02:47) - And not that when they happen, we feel like there's something wrong with us or we are losing our mind. Right? That we should expect our employee to come back. And yes, probably want to be at work. Certainly for most of us financially, need to be at work and also want to feel like they're somewhat functional and they can be successful. And how could we create a scaffolding around them to allow that to be the reality? None of that is in place right now for most of us. You know, I'm pretty comfortable saying for almost all of us. And so my mission really has become to do everything that I can to make people understand or help people to understand that grief is a normal part of our life. It's gonna happen to all of us. We're gonna face grief for losses, big and small, you know, for losses of people and all kinds of other losses.

Speaker 1 (00:03:35) - And if we can normalize that and make it something that we expect, and so then we build skills around and we build tools around and we have mindsets about, then this can actually be a healthier experience for everyone. Because right now it's really bad for everybody. It's bad for the griever because after those three to five days, most people who you thought you could count on scatter for all kinds of good reasons. So it's hard for the griever. You're left isolated and confused. And for the people that wanna support someone who's grieving, they feel scared. Cause they don't know what to do. They don't wanna do any harm, they don't wanna do the wrong thing. They don't know what the right thing is. And so they get kind of caught up in doing nothing. So now we're all isolated. We all feel badly  and nobody's healing. So this is not the way we should continue to carry on

Speaker 0 (00:04:27) - 100%. So much of what you said resonated with my own experience. Um, and first I wanted to stop and take a minute to, um, acknowledge your loss. Like that is horrible. And that's really not that long ago. September of 2020.

Speaker 1 (00:04:40) - Yeah. Two and a half years.

Speaker 0 (00:04:42) - And as a parent, I, I know it's, it's one of those things that you have difficulty even contemplating mm-hmm. . So I can imagine when it happens to you, what a rollercoaster and spiral of uncertainty you find yourself in. And without the scaffolding as you describe it or the structure to deal with it in any kind of meaningful way is, is horrible, horrible for you. And like you said, it's, it's horrible for all of us, the the grieving and the ones that wanna support. Because I found myself in both si sides of that coin where I remember when I was experiencing a laugh, everyone kept saying, oh, just let me know. I can come help, I can come help. And I'm like, well, I'm here every day. Like,  , nobody would come. I'm here doing this every day. If you wanna come over, um, well just let me know.

Speaker 0 (00:05:34) - Okay. I just did. And I get, but I get it because I've been on the other side. Like, I wanna be there for you, but I really have no idea. And I, I am terrified. I'm gonna say the wrong thing because I do that quite regularly, as my listeners have probably heard me do it a few times, stick my foot right in my mouth. But, um, and that's where I want us all to get a little more comfortable and try and have these conversations is doing something is better than nothing. And hopefully your friend or loved one is going to have the grace that like, oh, they're trying, they're here. Even if you happen to say the, the worst line of advice of time heals all wounds,

Speaker 1 (00:06:09) - Oh, they'll

Speaker 0 (00:06:11) - Roll their eyes, but they will know that you are, um, meaning you're well intending. It's

Speaker 1 (00:06:17) - Yeah. Yeah. And I, I jokingly say, you know, when people say, well, what should I say? You know, I wish that there was a magic phrase or sentence or a couple sentences that I could say, I've found it. You know, here's the golden ticket. There isn't one. What I will say is, and I, and I say this jokingly because we need a little bit of levity with this, uh, you know, hard topic for people. If you heard your Aunt Mildred say it to your mom at your grandma's funeral, you probably shouldn't say it, right? , all those old platitudes and cliches, we've outgrown them. They don't serve us anymore. And some of them actually do harm. And the problem with most of them is that so much of the subtext, like if you say to someone, oh, you know, they would want you to be happy.

Speaker 1 (00:07:01) - Someone said that to me. And it, I I did very, very well to not punch them in the throat cuz it made me so angry. Because what that meant to me was that this person who I had thought it was safe to grieve with, it wasn't because my son didn't want me to be happy. I mean, of course ultimately he wants me to be happy in that moment, he hmm. Doesn't get a vote anymore, frankly. And so it's actually you that want me to be happy. It's you who are comfortable with my sadness and my emotions.

Speaker 0 (00:07:35) - Ah,

Speaker 1 (00:07:36) - So it, it's, again, it's isolating. It pulls us apart instead of bringing us together. So someone who really, you know, and as you say, I got to the point where I just had to listen with my heart. I couldn't listen with my head anymore. I had to just listen with my heart to their intention because the words were so often problematic that you kind of have to get to that place where you go, Hmm, yeah, that's, that stings somewhere. But I have to just let all of that go and just listen with my heart cuz they're trying their best and none of us know. And how silly is that it's gonna happen to all of us and we are not talking about it and we don't know. It doesn't make any sense to me.

Speaker 0 (00:08:13) - Yeah. And I can relate to that, the anger of a platitude being shared with me and wanting to throw punch  and really not sure why. Like, I know they're trying, they're, they, what they're saying they believe is, it was someone had told me like, you're so strong and I just wanted like,

Speaker 1 (00:08:33) - Because they're saying that to you when, first of all, I don't wanna be strong. Like yeah.

Speaker 0 (00:08:37) - Like I did not sign up for this

Speaker 1 (00:08:38) - , I need permission from you to not be strong and to actually be a hot mess. Mm-hmm. . So first of all, they're taking away that permission for you to grieve, right? By saying, oh, you're so strong. Oh, so now I need to be strong with you. Mm-hmm. , excellent. Good to know. I need to go find someone else I can grieve with. But it's also like I didn't need an opportunity to display my strength or earn more of it, frankly. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 0 (00:09:02) -  like,

Speaker 1 (00:09:03) - Yes. So this kind of thought that like this thing happened to you so you could display and gain strength is also hurt su right? It makes us go, oh yeah, no, no. All of that. No.

Speaker 0 (00:09:16) - And, and this is one thing that I struggle with and you might, uh, relate to it since you are finding your work in this, this process that you went through, the idea of adversity builds character or, um, there is a thing as post-traumatic stress growth

Speaker 1 (00:09:32) - A hundred percent. But,

Speaker 0 (00:09:33) - But a lot of people equate the trauma to that growth. Like the trauma is what caused the growth. And it's like, no, the the, the growth doesn't come automatically. Like we as the people that experience the trauma need to put in the work to, to experience the growth. And then if we decide to turn and help other people with it, it's a whole nother step. But people equating the, oh, well, you know, the, the trauma was kind of a blessing, which I get, I get on one level, but yeah, no,  please.

Speaker 1 (00:10:03) - And yeah, what's interesting about that is that when someone says it to you, it creates an expectation. So now the expectation is that's being put on you by somebody else that somehow out of this horrifying thing that happened, you are supposed to somehow be better.

Speaker 0 (00:10:20) - Well, and you have to find meaning in it.

Speaker 1 (00:10:22) - Yeah. Which is totally different from, as the person who experienced the trauma, me choosing mm-hmm.  for this to be something that is going to transform my life and create opportunities for me to grow. I got to make that choice. But I didn't want anybody to tell me that I was supposed to do that. Right. We, there's too many supposed tos already. I don't want that to be another one. Right. And it also creates a situation where, where people can kind of dismiss what happened in a weird way. Because what happened was like, you know, it's this gift to you somehow. And often these things are said to us in that acute stage or that re those really early days where we're as the griever in survival mode. Like my curiosity at that point is, how do I breathe? Like when I'm sobbing, lipping a ball on the floor, how do I gasp a breath so that I can oxygenate my body? I don't wanna be told that I'm gonna grow and I'm gonna be stronger and I am, you know, better things will happen. I don't wanna hear any of that. I want to be witnessed with how horrifying the current moment is. That's what grievers need.

Speaker 0 (00:11:33) - I was just gonna say, maybe there is, that's a good, um, topic to cover is what, what should people who are trying to support someone that's grieving, what should they say? What should they do? Not to put another should on anybody but .

Speaker 1 (00:11:48) - No, no. But you know, what would be helpful? What would

Speaker 0 (00:11:50) - Helpful? Yeah. What would be helpful?

Speaker 1 (00:11:54) - So one thing I know for sure is that grief needs to be witnessed. And I think that we all have an instinct and we kind of know that right? When something bad happens to us, our instinct is to go tell a friend and be heard, right? So we know that when we have losses, the emotions that we're feeling need to be witnessed. The problem is we're very enculturated in wanting to show up, get to the bottom of it, fix it, move on and show up, get to the bottom of it, fix it and move on. Doesn't work in grief, it doesn't work that way. So if you wanna support somebody, you have to release all of that hope that you can show up and fix something or make it better because you can't, weirdly what makes it better. If we can, you know, acknowledge that using that, even that languaging when we're talking about grief is a little bit weird, but it's the languaging that we have. If we wanna make it better, the best thing that we can do is just show up and listen and reflect back. If you have the skills to be able to reflect back, oh my gosh, that is so terrible.

Speaker 1 (00:13:06) - And then you have to stop and resist the, I totally know what you're going through because this other thing happened to me that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. I wouldn't even say that to a parent who's lost a child, cuz I don't, we all have this unique path to forge. And while I can understand what it was for me, I don't know what it is for someone else. So the way we try and insert ourselves in and what we're trying to do, which is really, um, you know, admirable, is we're trying to make connection, right? By, by relating we're trying to make, we're trying to create relatedness. What it does is it creates distance. So in our attempts to create connection, we create isolation. The best advice that I can give, and again, I really wish, you know, one day I might come up with the magic saying, I don't think there is one, because grief is so unique and because each of our relationships with the griever is so unique, the only thing we can do that's the best is speak vulnerably from our heart in our own words.

Speaker 1 (00:14:13) - So if you've read it on a greeting card, if it's, you know, something you heard someone saying it sounded really good and you wanna like use what they said, I would encourage you to come up with your own words. And you know, when I, when I teach this workshop about what can we say and, and we do a deep dive into this, we do a journaling exercise where we, where everyone gets to come up with their own two or three sentences. And they're so beautiful because if you can come at it from that open-hearted place where you're being vulnerable, because really we're gonna be very upfront, none of us know the right thing to say. The griever can't even tell you the right thing to say that's land perfectly for them in any given moment. Cuz every moment is different. But if you can speak from your heart vulnerably about what's real for you and what your fuel for that other person, that's really beautiful.

Speaker 1 (00:15:03) - And even if it, I had one friend who, you know, one of my core support team of four who managed to stand with me and, and be there in the darkest, darkest days and the most awkward ugliness. And she said, you know what, I'm terrified cuz I don't know what to say and I don't know what to do and I don't know how to help, but I'm here for you and let's figure it out. And we did. And we have had the most amazing conversations about grief, which was a huge taboo topic in her family. It's become something we can talk about and we can learn about together. And you know, we can be really honest with each other, even when we're not talking about grief. We have a level of honesty together because we were honest and vulnerable in those most complicated moments. So that connectedness that we're yearning for comes from our openness to expressing what we don't know and owning what we don't know. I don't know how to show up for you, but I really want to, and so let's figure it out together.

Speaker 0 (00:16:06) - Gosh, that really makes so much sense and it sounds so simple, but also in practice, we know that's probably one of the most difficult things to do, is to show up open-hearted and be vulnerable.

Speaker 1 (00:16:18) - Yeah. But what would happen to the world if we all practice that and built that?

Speaker 0 (00:16:23) - Oh my gosh, right? Amazing. Right?

Speaker 1 (00:16:25) -  instead of our, you know, pull out the platitude muscle, which is so strong, we're so good at that show up, fix it. Or the

Speaker 0 (00:16:31) - Productivity model that you had. Like, I just wanna come in, fix it. Like let's get to the bottom of this so that we can move on to life as usual. And like I, I feel like what a gift that protocol or model is to the capitalist society, right? Like, oh well we've gotten your three days off and now you wanna come back to work to cope with the loss. Right? A lot of times that getting right back to your routine is, is your coping mechanism.

Speaker 1 (00:16:54) - Yep. And if for a lot of people it provides a respite, right? It's a break from the overwhelm.

Speaker 0 (00:17:00) - Yeah. That that's really ingrained in, in us from all areas, right? The productivity, whether we are helping the griever or we're the griever ourselves. Like I just need to get back to um, fixing something, doing something that is tangible, um, to get me out of feeling right. With just then where you really need to be is in that open-hearted space being vulnerable, which isn't always that comfortable. Especially when you're Yes. Um, yes. So simple but not in practice. How do we get better at that?

Speaker 1 (00:17:33) - I think the way we get better at that is practicing it when someone is not in catastrophic grief.

Speaker 0 (00:17:37) - Good point. Right? Right. Take the pressure off ourselves.

Speaker 1 (00:17:41) - . Yeah. So if you're trying that for the first time with someone like me who just lost a child and you wanna show up for them, that is not gonna be a good place to practice necessarily for this particular friend And I, it was great we had enough of a foundation that we could just be a hot mess together. But what if we practiced it when someone lost something less catastrophic? Cuz we all have losses all the time. So what if when you had a smaller loss, we practiced that and we showed up for each other in the small losses in a way that helped us to practice for the big ones.

Speaker 0 (00:18:15) - Wow. Could be a whole new maybe like set of showers. Like instead of baby showers and bridal showers, we have you broke up with your boyfriend shower or , right? . You're getting a divorce shower. I don't know, I'm being silly now, but,

Speaker 1 (00:18:31) - But that's, no, but you're bringing up something really interesting. So we have this whole as a collective, this whole way we show up for people when they're pregnant and expecting and have a baby. We have a whole protocol for that. And yes, it gets disrupted, you know, when there's miscarriages, when there's infant loss, that's a whole different thing. But in a normal healthy, I got pregnant, I told everybody, we celebrated, I had a baby. The baby is healthy, we're carrying on with our lives and everybody's ecstatic and we all know how to show up for that person. Strangers show up for you. Right. If you've been pregnant and you've walked in a grocery store, people have come up to support you. They have some of them wanna touch your belly, which I always, yeah.

Speaker 0 (00:19:10) - That's the first thing I thought. Sometimes they wanna touch your belly. Right?

Speaker 1 (00:19:13) - Super strange and weird. We're not perfect at it. But we do know to show up and we say something, something open-hearted because we're feeling happiness. So we're okay with being open-hearted when we're happy, but we don't have those same protocols for the other end of life. We don't have that same sense as a collective that we know how to show up for that person. That we know how to throw the party or we know how to bring the caster rules. Like as you say, even those things that happen if you're lucky, we don't, not everybody does them the same way they would if you had a baby.

Speaker 0 (00:19:45) - No,

Speaker 1 (00:19:46) - But it's the same, it's the same regularity and the same normal part of our life, normal, healthy part of life is that we are going to lose people. People are going to die. It's going to happen to all of us. But we're so scared. You know, our good intentions have made us so scared and our sense that, you know, the norms don't work anymore. Because I think at a s you know, at a subconscious level we get that. That's why we hesitate. And that's why we don't wanna say the things we heard our Aunt Mildreth say, cuz we know they don't really work anymore. But then we haven't figured out what works instead and then we don't practice it. Right? We don't practice being vulnerable, we don't practice being heart-centered. What if we practice that all the time?

Speaker 0 (00:20:33) - Like you said, what a amazing world that would be. Mm-hmm . And I feel like a lot of it we recognize, oh, it doesn't work and we're not sure what works. And the reality is it's because it's different for everybody. And you are never gonna know. Like even, you know, in the coaching space, the, the term trauma informed is, is is popular these days because trauma's kind of a thing. But really how trauma informed can you be because everybody's shows up completely differently for them. For them. So you might think you're operating in the most trauma-informed way and you still might trigger somebody. It, it's just like that's just our, the life we live in, the world we live in. Um, so doing the best that we can. And where was I going with this point of, I think I was just going with the point that it's different for everybody.

Speaker 0 (00:21:21) - Like the, we used to think that there would be this stages that we went through in a linear fashion. Well we quickly realized well maybe it's not linear. Maybe I'm doing this step and then this step and then I'm going back to that step and then, and then this step's gonna show up again. So we start learning like, okay, those phases all make sense but they show up in haphazard ways. And now learning to navigate it for ourselves and for our friends and loved ones that might be experiencing it. That makes sense that it's scary cuz you don't know what's going on.

Speaker 1 (00:21:55) - But we do scary things all the time.

Speaker 0 (00:21:58) - We do sometimes we even pay people to do scary things like go on a rollercoaster, right? Jump out of a plane.

Speaker 1 (00:22:03) - Scary. That is exhilarating. You need to change your mindset about that because that's the best thing ever. Well

Speaker 0 (00:22:09) - I, I, I'm worst case scenario planner. I'm like, are all the bolts tightened on this thing? Like is this thing gonna

Speaker 1 (00:22:15) - Go ok? It's just best to not think about those things.

Speaker 0 (00:22:17) - , . Yeah. Open-hearted and vulnerable. So easy. Why aren't we doing it? Okay. And

Speaker 1 (00:22:25) - Not easy, right?

Speaker 0 (00:22:26) - No, it's not. I was in facetious. And

Speaker 1 (00:22:28) - Then, you know, I think the other thing is that, you know, I hesitate to take away everybody's ability to do, to take action, right? Because we are creatures of wanting to take action, right? We love to do. So you do have to embrace the being, right? Because that's the only way to carry it with you for the long haul, which is how grief works is to just be in all the emotions of it. But people do wanna show up and help. And I loved your, your um, uh, framing of like, uh, you know, anything you need let me know. Like I'm here for you and you're like, like I'm here all week. Like tip the waitress, like I'm doing this full-time, so pop in any day I'll be grieving. Right. The problem with that too though is that for the most part, the grievers, especially in the early, um, early days, which I, you know, everybody gets to define for themselves.

Speaker 1 (00:23:15) - For me there was a big transition at the two year mark, which I felt like I sort of moved out of early grief. So it's a lot longer than you think that people need your help. What I would say is if you're someone who loves to take action and that's your sweet spot and you are taking baby steps, practicing this open-hearted vulnerability thing we're talking about, there are ways to take action that are really helpful. And the best way is with something really specific and really tangible. Let me know if you need anything, is too much for the grieving brain to process. I don't even know what I'm doing one minute from now. I don't know if I'm gonna be hysterical or sobbing. I don't know how I'm going to make it through the day till I get to go back to bed. Right? I can't conceive of what you might be able to do for me if you reached out and said, Hey, I'm going to the grocery store. Do you need milk? I know the answer to that question and if I don't, I can go to my fridge and open it and say I don't need milk, but could you bring me some bread or bananas or whatever it is.

Speaker 1 (00:24:21) - So if you can offer something really specific, then your griever will be able to take advantage of that. So if you really wanna actually do something for them, that's my, that's my suggestion. Come up with something really specific and if there's something you're really good at or you love or is easy for, you offer that. Right? I was working with someone who was supporting a griever and they really wanted to do something tangible for this person. And so we were brainstorming what they could do and I said, well what do you really love to do that might help this person? You know, because they knew them really well. So they knew, kind of knew what they needed help with. And, and this person said, well wait a minute. I love to do like, I love to paint like walls. I love to do like little home rental projects.

Speaker 1 (00:25:02) - And the person they were supporting hated the color of their bedroom. So you're in grief and your bedroom is not a sanctuary. And I said to the, which is a big problem, I said to this person, well what if you phoned them up and said, you know, I really love to paint and I know you hate the color of your bedroom. Do you have a color in mind? Because I will go to the store, buy it and come and paint your bedroom for you. And that's what she did. She phoned them up and said, Hey, like do you want, do you have a color that you think you'd love to be in? There doesn't have to be the forever color, like the for now color. That would be better than what it is. Oh yeah, sure. It was, you know, whatever. Okay, I'm gonna go like, what weekend is good for you?

Speaker 1 (00:25:40) - I'm gonna go and buy the paint and I'm gonna come and paint it for you. That's a massive gift to a griever. Cause that room was not gonna get painted anytime in early grief. It was not. Right. And this was another person who had lost a son. So they, they were not gonna have that capacity for quite some time. That thing she loved to do turned into a massive gift. Specific tangible. And then the key, key key thing is you have to show up. Cause for me anyway, you have to do what you said you were gonna do for me as much as in the early days, I couldn't remember almost anything. If someone said they were going to do something, I could remember that. So then I wouldn't ask someone else to do it. So then if you didn't do it , I was in the weeds.

Speaker 1 (00:26:25) - So if you've offered and they've said, oh my gosh yes. Can you bring me bread? Bring them bread, right? And they won't care what kind of bread. No one cares what kind of milk. You don't need to worry about the details, you know, unless you wanna get really specific. But for the most part, you know, bring me bread, whatever you bring, I will eat it doesn't matter. Um, so those really specific tangible things, if you're an action taker and a doer and you get comfort that way, there are ways to do things for your griever that will be really helpful.

Speaker 0 (00:26:52) - Yeah. And that leads to the other part of the grieving process that nobody talks about. Like the practical side of it. Like all the, the things that happen after someone dies. I'm sure it's a little different when you lose a child, but when someone is an adult with their own household, like all the filings and all the stuff and like the estate quote unquote, when there's really no nothing was planned. And probate attorneys and that whole rigamarole that isn't quick nor easy and nobody really talks about .

Speaker 1 (00:27:23) - Yeah. Yeah. And it's all hard. Like you are having to, so think about how that works. You're having to phone complete strangers to tell them about your loss, to tell them that your person died because you need their help to close out an account or you need their help to get some documents or you need their help to something. The majority of the time you're pers the person you're phoning is just as grief illiterate and terrified as the rest of us. So you're not necessarily getting someone with any skills and you're having to like speak your most painful truth in those early days over and over and over and over.

Speaker 0 (00:28:00) - I feel like what, what a gift would be if banks started like having a person trained that handled those sorts of calls. Wouldn't that be amazing? Wouldn't

Speaker 1 (00:28:11) - That be nice? Right. If there was someone who was actually, like, if there was a, you're dealing with a death or a loss phone number. Yeah. And that 800 number was a

Speaker 0 (00:28:21) - Be a number on the infamous

Speaker 1 (00:28:23) - . Yeah. Right.

Speaker 0 (00:28:24) - Phone tree of

Speaker 1 (00:28:26) - An arm. You has recently changed, right? If one of those was, do you need someone who's grief and trauma informed and you could get to the person who knew how to hold space for you while you had to do these hard things. I,

Speaker 0 (00:28:38) - I feel like we're onto something

Speaker 1 (00:28:39) - With this. Like there's a whole bunch of really simple things we could do to make this better for everybody.

Speaker 0 (00:28:44) - Uhhuh . That's why it's good that there are people like you doing this work to bring an awareness to like, Hey, we can do this differently. People

Speaker 1 (00:28:52) - Yeah. And we can figure it out together. I, I mean I know my experience, I know the experiences of the people I work with. I know the experiences of the people I read about and listen to and, but everybody's experiences different. But there are these really relatively simple things that we can do as a starting point. And then let's see where we go. Like if we can blow up that old paradigm in that old way that we know doesn't really work and start somewhere.

Speaker 0 (00:29:20) - And, and the reality, like one thing you learn as a coach is you don't have to say anything. Like a lot of times you just being there and holding the space allow the other person to say what they need to say or feel what they need to feel or cry and sob, whatever they need to get out. Just being there is, is a help.

Speaker 1 (00:29:44) - Yeah. And that's a huge gift for a griever. If you can show up and bite your tongue every time you wanna jump into the conversation and offer a suggestion or a fix. . Right. , I heard the, the most, the most funny description of holding space the other day I was walking the dog. This is a complete hilarious situation. I'm walking the dog and I passed this couple and the young, you know, 20 ish and the woman said to the man, well, you know, do you even know what holding space is? And I thought, ooh, we're just gonna stop. I'm gonna

Speaker 0 (00:30:14) - Slow down a little bit.

Speaker 1 (00:30:15) - , I wanted to know the answer. Right. And he said, bless his heart. Yeah. That's when you show up to talk to somebody and you just don't say anything. And I was like, okay, well that's close, right? That's

Speaker 0 (00:30:29) - , it's a good start. I mean, it could be depending on the person.

Speaker 1 (00:30:33) - So if that's where you're at withholding space, if you don't have any experience in like building a container and keeping someone safe and you have no trauma informed training, you're not a coach. If you can show up and just be quiet, we're good to go.

Speaker 0 (00:30:47) - You're not gonna say, you're not gonna say the wrong thing.

Speaker 1 (00:30:49) - Right. Well yeah, there you go. We released some of that pressure. Right. But that's a, that's a great place to start

Speaker 0 (00:30:56) - And acknowledging like, I feel like you did at the beginning that we all want to fix, we all want to offer suggestions. It's, it, it's in us and it's not a bad thing. But in these situations if we could temper that a little bit and let the person be and feel and do what they need to do, openhearted and vulnerable

Speaker 1 (00:31:19) - . That's that perfect storm spot. That's so hard

Speaker 0 (00:31:22) - Spot. That's what I hear. Like Brene Brown on my shoulder.

Speaker 1 (00:31:25) - , right? Yeah. Oh my gosh. Thank goodness I knew e everything Brene Brown before this happened. Cuz I was really practicing vulnerability a lot before and thank goodness cuz I, you know, would've been even more of a hot mess if I thought I had to stuff it all inside and I couldn't be vulnerable. I,

Speaker 0 (00:31:39) - It really is a superpower. I think we're learning.

Speaker 1 (00:31:42) - Yeah. And it's, that's what strength looks like. Strength doesn't look like, you know, hard silent, pushing through strength. Looks like I'm a hot mess. I'm gonna own, I'm a hot mess. I'm gonna own that. I need help and when people offer and I can take it, I'm gonna take it and I'm gonna be okay with all of that. Cuz we're all here to be interconnected, right? We're, you know, anthropologically, we're supposed to be connected to each other. We're supposed to rely on each other. This whole sort of western myth of, you know, self-sufficiency and you know, go get 'em and like pull up your bootstraps and work hard and meritocracy like all of that is just, you know, a bad soup we've all been swimming in. That doesn't work in grief. I mean, I would posit that it really doesn't work very well most of the time. It for sure doesn't work in, you know, catastrophic grief. It's not gonna work.

Speaker 0 (00:32:41) - I would agree. And all that that you just said gave me goosebumps and, and it's so true. We are tr trained, ingrained, encouraged to be independent, hyper independent in cases. And it's not working for us. Like the competition model and pulling yourself up by the bootstraps is just not working. It's not sus I think we're finding it's not sustainable. We need each other and especially in these times of like what you're talking about when we're grieving and when we're celebrating like, like we talked about in the birthing process with the showers and the people coming together and strangers at the grocery store. Like, because we need each other. And, and if we could just shift that to include the grieving part. And I'm wondering are there any rituals that you have found he helpful in the grieving process

Speaker 1 (00:33:38) - For us? There are, um, we, um, my daughter and I were very clear that we wanted to find a way that like we were ignoring all the societal expectations around like getting through it and over it and moving on all that really harmful languaging. Um, because we will move forward with Ben. I, there's no version of my reality where I want to leave him behind. And so I think we do a disservice to grievers with that idea that you're supposed to get over it because if I get over it, then what happens to my person? So for me, Ben is very present in our lives, you know, he just is cuz he is. And we've made a conscious decision to do it that way. So for us, we, you know, still celebrate. Um, like his birthday, he, you know, it's funny that  that you say that he would have been 25 this year.

Speaker 1 (00:34:30) - Um, so I'm actually gonna have a birthday party, uh, the first year for his birthday. I didn't know what to do and I had to do something like this is, the other part about it is sometimes we do have to do like we have to do something. So I made goodie bags for a bunch of his friends with some of his favorite things in them and the activity that it, like, it took me about a month. I gave myself, I had this idea quite, you know, about a month and a half before his birthday cuz I knew I had to do something and I thought, oh my gosh, what if I did goodie bags? And so I did these goodie bags of like his favorite hot sauce. I'm trying to think of what all was in there. His favorite hot sauce, I mixed old fashions.

Speaker 1 (00:35:06) - He loved, um, cocktails, fancy cocktails. So I mixed old fashioned. So there was a mason jar fill of old fashions, his favorite hot sauce, this sauce that we used to make guacamole that he just loved. Um, birthday cake flavored Oreos. Uh, anyway, there was about five or six, you know, weird little things in there. And I made these goodie bags up for his friends because I wanted to acknowledge, right, we do need to create rituals. So we've done that very thoughtfully. Um, things around his birthday, we um, so for us, um, his death anniversary is really complicated cuz he died four days before his sister's birthday. So that week is really complicated. So we made a pledge to each other, my daughter and I, that we would spend that week together for as long as we needed to. So the first year we went away, um, we've actually, we've been away both of those weeks we've gone um, to places that had significance and created a ritual that I call revisiting and reclaiming.

Speaker 1 (00:36:06) - So for us, we traveled a lot, we loved to travel big trips and little trips. We just loved to travel and experience new things. And I knew that I didn't want those places we had enjoyed so much with him to become places we couldn't go cuz it was too painful. So we decided what we needed to do was go there purposefully with the intention of revisiting that place and remembering all of the things we had done with him. All the fun things, the special, you know, all those special times. And then to really consciously talk about, okay, but then what is this place gonna be to us in the future? Is it somewhere we wanna visit again or is this closure and we don't really feel the need to come back here? And if it's somewhere we wanna keep being able to visit, what would that look like?

Speaker 1 (00:36:52) - Do we come and do some of his favorite things that we did together and some new things? Do we ignore his favorite things? Well no, that didn't feel right. So a lot of it is about really being conscious and doing it with purpose and just creating those ways to carry your person with you. You know, we've talked about, for example, you know, all the time my kids talked about my daughter's wedding, which will happen someday. Ben was a very active part of that. He loved fashion and design and architecture and interior design, all that. So he was gonna be like the designer of it. He would find help find the dress. Like he had all these active roles to play. There was a big battle between her best friends and him about who was gonna be the maid of honor. Like it was hilarious was this whole big conversation they had had. So now he's not gonna be there for that. So how do we have him still be a part of that? How do we do some of the things that we knew that we know because we talked about it, that he would've done, you know, how do we have him be present for her? I know someone, oh my gosh, I can't think of who it was, but they had had a situation like that and at the wedding in in the chairs for the ceremony, they had a picture of the sibling that was gone.

Speaker 0 (00:38:07) - Oh wow.

Speaker 1 (00:38:07) - Like on one of the chairs. So their picture was there. So like their image was present. I thought that was so beautiful.

Speaker 0 (00:38:14) - I've seen, I've seen the empty seat before, but like I love the idea of actually being able to see him like she can turn back and see him.

Speaker 1 (00:38:21) - Yeah. See him there, right. Like that would be really cool. And so it's, for me, you know, we've lost so many of the rituals. I thought so often in that first year, you know, if we still lived in a culture where I was supposed to wear black for the year and everyone would know I was doing that because I was mourning or because I or had an armband or I had torn my clothes or something. Like all of those rituals that alert the outside world to the fact that we need special care we don't do anymore.

Speaker 0 (00:38:49) - And that's part of that lost connectedness, that lost community of, of, of relying on our tribe so to speak, of like, yeah, them helping us through the process in whatever way. If even if it's just giving us space.

Speaker 1 (00:39:04) - And instead you get the poor cashier who's trained to say, how are you today? And I wanna go, what the heck is happening here?

Speaker 0 (00:39:11) - Do you need any bags?

Speaker 1 (00:39:12) - Like preposterous conversation and then have a great day. I'm like, what the actual, like,

Speaker 0 (00:39:18) - Or, or

Speaker 1 (00:39:19) - I could not grocery shop for ages because of that whole thing. It was like too much for me.

Speaker 0 (00:39:23) - I find grocery shopping traumatic anyways,  without grieving the grieving process. Well and I was like the well intending gentleman that suggests you might smile,

Speaker 1 (00:39:32) - Right?

Speaker 0 (00:39:33) - It's like you have no idea what people are going through

Speaker 1 (00:39:37) - And we have no way to outwardly signal that anymore. Mm-hmm. , we've lo like we've lo kind of lost all of that. You know, the way you have your pregnancy belly so everyone knows they should, they should celebrate with you. Right? And we don't have that on the other end where, you know, I get to wear a pin or something. I don't even know what it would look like, but it, it does mean then that we're in our traumatized deep grief state trying to interact with a world that has no idea what's going on and wants everything to be happy.

Speaker 0 (00:40:04) - Yeah. It's challenging to like, like how do people know? So that's part of the becoming a trauma informed, uh, culture. Like, just don't expect people to smile if like, if they're going through something, don't tell 'em to, you know, like you don't know what they're going through. So just don't tell 'em to smile. And the, the, gosh, what was I saying? I loved the intentionality that you talked about when you traveled to the space that, or the place that was, that you had a lot of memories with him and, and discussing whether you would come back again and what you would do. I love the intentionality of doing something, you know, like whatever you feel moved to do. I, I've had similar experiences with people that I've lost. Like I know I knew that I wanted to do something. Some years I was good at actually doing something. Other years I didn't have the capacity, but I knew that I wanted to do something and maybe that year wasn't gonna be the year, but in years' future. So finding that grace for yourself too, right? If you're still too in, in the weeds, know that the next year might be different and if that's gonna be something that feels good to you, then do it.

Speaker 1 (00:41:16) - Yeah. Also it doesn't, yeah.

Speaker 0 (00:41:19) - Well cause also you're like, well what are other people gonna think if I do this? Like, are they're gonna, you know, and

Speaker 1 (00:41:24) - Who cares?

Speaker 0 (00:41:25) - Fuck that.

Speaker 1 (00:41:26) - Who cares? Like, and it, it is interesting cuz for me, one of the things that fell away instantly was my ability to worry about that kind of stuff. Like I just didn't have the capacity and I was an a plus student at like being the good daughter. I was the good kid in the family. I was the good employee. I did all the things, good student, high achiever, all that stuff. And when Ben died, I, I just did no capacity to pretend anything. Like I couldn't perform anything. I had no performativeness left. So then what? So then you're le you know, then you're, you're completely recalibrating your entire life when that happens. Right? It's, it's been interesting and I don't really, you know, that's one of the puzzle pieces that I don't care if I ever pick up again at this point. I I have no space for that. I don't care if you need me to perform, I'm not your person.

Speaker 0 (00:42:15) - Well and and that's another uh, part that I, that I feel we resist is trauma, grief loss a lot of times changes us permanently. And that's okay cuz a lot of times we, we get ugh, stuck on the like, I wanna be that person that I was before and like maybe that's not gonna happen. That's okay. Can you find something in the person you are now that's, that is worth your admiration or um, I don't know how to say that, but I remember someone throwing that at me. You're different . I'm like, yeah, I am

Speaker 1 (00:42:56) - Uhhuh . And like, and what's interesting for me because I think, you know, the, the out of order death of a, of the death of a child does buy you in this sort of societal norms, some grace. And so I think there was a lot of grace around like, how could I ever be the same person? It's impossible to be a parent who's lost a child and ever get back to I think how, how do you ever get back to that person that you were the moment before that happened. And I knew very early that there was no, that that person didn't exist anymore. And so I had to figure out like, who am I now?

Speaker 0 (00:43:41) - Do you, I was like, do you feel you needed to grieve that person as part of your overall grieving process? Interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:43:47) - So then you, that makes a lot of sense. Loss of your person. I'm grieving the loss of myself. I'm grieving the loss of the future. I dreamed of where he was there because this is my child who was supposed to be there for the whole rest of my life. Right. So the, it's so it's grief upon grief upon grief. It's so multi-layered. But yeah, a hundred percent I had to grief that that person was gone and didn't exist anymore. And who was I gonna be next?

Speaker 0 (00:44:11) - I feel like we've covered all the topics we talked about. Little bit of help for the people that are supporting the grievers a little bit of help for the grievers themselves. Um, I love that we touched on connectedness and interdependence cause I feel it is so important and so lacking in our day-to-day life. I like to round out actually since I'm getting started again, I really don't have a really good routine on how I round these conversations out. But one of my go-tos is how are you taking care of yourself? I'm a firm believer that those of us who want to stay engaged in public discourse and things that are happening in the world need to really lean on self-care because we need to be able to take care of ourselves so we can, we can engage and interact with current events. Um, and if you're someone who's working in the grief field, I imagine you have a pretty solid self-care ritual routine. Um, what, what ways are you taking care of yourself these days?

Speaker 1 (00:45:17) - That's such an interesting question. And so before I answer it, I'm just gonna give griever some, um, some space because it's one of the things I see a lot on like how to be a griever list is like to take to have great, a great self-care routine. My entire self-care routine, which was pretty good on, you know, September 25th completely fell apart. I had no capacity to meditate, I had no capacity to exercise, I had no capacity to walk outside. I had no capacity for that. I kept drinking water. That was about the only thing I maintained from my self-care routine. So I wanna give grievers some space to, to be okay with that if that's the reality for you as it was for me. What I do now is I find a lot of comfort in nature. Nature's always been a really comforting place for me.

Speaker 1 (00:46:06) - Um, and one of the things hilariously in the way that grief kind of forces you to become an expert at holding paradox, um, one of the things that we did is we got a dog so ama along with all the other people working from home in Covid that got a dog. We got a dog. And what's been really interesting in that is probably earlier than I would have without him, I had to get out of the house. I had to go for walks on a regular basis. , I had to take care of another preacher, right? I mean I was obviously was taking care of my daughter, but she's a grown woman. She didn't need, you know, care of like feeding and you know, take being taken to the bathroom, which the dog did . Um, so there's something about that regularity of needing to move my body to get outta the house to go breathe air that's, you know, fresh and blowy.

Speaker 1 (00:47:00) - Um, that was really helpful. So I really find regular exercise super helpful. I'm just now, so this is a two and a half year mark. So for grievers out there that are struggling to feed themselves in a way that's healthy, I'm just getting the capacity back to do that now. So what I would say is, if that's true for you, find someone who loves to cook, send them your recipes, get them to cook what you wanna eat because some of us don't want the random weird casseroles you've brought up ask they would like you to make them and then make them that . Anyway, another handy tip. Um, so really getting back to healthy eating water is huge. You have to hydrate cuz you're, you're crying a lot. You have to hydrate. But really that sense of sleep, I need sleep. I am a sleep person. So I have a really strict go to bed early kind of sleep routine cuz I wake up really early. So sleep, water, move your body meditation. Yeah, that's kind of my foundation.

Speaker 0 (00:47:56) - I I just wanna acknowledge the, the part about giving yourself the grace if you're not, if you don't have the capacity to do any of the self-care, I find that to be true for so many people that when we need it the most. Yeah. It's when we're like, hey yeah that is not happening .

Speaker 1 (00:48:15) - Nope .

Speaker 0 (00:48:16) - And that's where I slip into, okay, what is the smallest, smallest thing I can do? Or even if I don't do it in intentionally, I can look in hindsight cuz I was in having one of those spells and I was down on myself like, you're feeling crappy and you're not taking care of yourself. And so then that's spiraling on top of it. And I said, wait, hold on

Speaker 1 (00:48:38) -  what? Because never did that help.

Speaker 0 (00:48:39) - Yeah. What am I doing? What am I doing? Okay, I'm doc, I'm walking the dogs cuz we too got a Covid puppy. I took a shower. Like the, I can get as basic as possible and as far as the hydration, yeah, okay. If I can drink one glass of water when I first wake up in the morning, I can celebrate that. You know, like, because a lot of times we try and do all the things and overwhelm ourselves and do none of the things. So yes, by all means, especially if you're grieving, give yourself grace and the smallest thing possible to take care of yourself. And one of the most difficult things to do, and I think you alluded to it, is asking for help, which it's probably much more difficult when you're in the thick of it. But I feel like all of us struggle with that and that leads back to that interconnectedness and us depending on each other a little bit more to get through the good and the bad times.

Speaker 1 (00:49:37) - Yeah. And it really, you know, for people who are supporting someone who's grieving, what I would say is that need for support goes on much longer than we think, right? We kind of have this weird societal norm about, uh, this magic timeline that is not a thing, doesn't exist, actually does harm. There's no timeline. Many of us need.